The Interview in the Dark
無法公開的談話
2021.08.17
3 min Read
台灣農地污染問題已經發生一段時間,大概在民國七十一年中央開始了一份調查,成為各城市推動受污農地整治計畫的序幕。這次我們約到了在公家環保單位工作的W先生訪談,想更了解關於農地污染與整治的過程。一開始W先生就很不好意思地說,關於這個議題的談話不方便公開他的身分,畢竟是在一個單位內工作,個人的意見並不能代表整體,並且這樣龐大的議題跨了許多不同單位,但他很願意在能力範圍內解答我們的問題。



【腹背受敵,努力找出平衡點】

W先生致力於農地整治計畫一段時間了,從污染的調查、檢驗、溝通、列管、到地力的恢復與後續管理,整治一塊地所需時程很長,各個階段也都有許多困難要面對。這一切難題的源頭,可以推至早期土地規劃的混亂,農業、工業、居住用地混雜,讓土地眾多關係人的需求相沖,難以找到一個平衡點,在這樣複雜交織的狀況,想要從源頭解決起也是一大難題。

「蠻難的啦台灣的社會,有的人先蓋了一個空的廠房準備進駐,面對質疑也只說:『沒有啊我沒有工廠啊,我這邊只是一個倉庫』,然後等你不注意時工廠就蓋好了。其實台灣有很多土地違法使用的亂象。」

重金屬污染沒辦法一眼就看出來,需要儀器檢測,除非遇到大搖大擺的現行犯,否則要現場抓出污染行為人是有相當的難度。這些污染可能是十年前或是更早就發生了,抓不到行為人的被害者無人可責,只好罵政府。夾在農民、工廠與民眾之間,W先生所在的單位常常成為被指責的對象,卻還是努力地滿足各方需求,尋找其中的平衡點。除了整治土地、補償農民,同時也要阻斷污染的產生。

「這些污染,如果來源沒有阻斷的話,那整治這個幹嘛?再過五年,不是一樣繼續污染嗎?抓出一個污染行為人,他被查被罰的狀況下,其他可能違法偷排的業者也才更會警惕。」

「必須要維持一定的查緝稽查的力度,而且讓大家知道,甚至要大張旗鼓。」



【從嚴管制的界線,劃分保護與犧牲】

土地污染成因複雜,這些對人體有害的重金屬會不會進入植物的食用部位、是如何進入到食物鏈中,詳細的成因是我們難以判斷的。

「土壤污染標準與農作物食安標準並不完全能接軌,而現在法規標準究竟是太鬆還是太嚴,更是我們霧裡看花的大哉問。」

「有時候我覺得專家他們也不敢講太多非常簡化的結論,因為有可能這句結論不見得適用所有地方。而輕易講出的結論被拿去擴大解讀時,反而造成無法挽回的影響。」

沒有可以信任的資訊,現狀卻很可能危急健康安全,這樣的狀態當然使人感到恐慌。在並不那麼了解污染影響的狀況下,從嚴管制是最保險的。但老實說,台灣這幾年的污染農地面積很大,但是絕大多數都不是鎘污染,大家不知道的是,其他的重金屬污染其實造成危機沒有鎘這麼大。但即便花再多時間溝通,民眾的觀感還是很難改變。

「農地污染」這一個大標籤,也許保障了部分的食安,但卻讓部分農民失去絕大部分的生計。



【從不懂到懂】

農地污染的問題在台灣已經發生了好一段時間,現在台灣還在經歷「從不懂到懂」的階段。以前的人不知道有污染,而開始發現污染嚴重後引起的軒然大波,其實是很好地引起全民關注的刺激。但W先生也提醒到在這個階段,若是一個本身沒那麼危險的事情把大家弄得很緊張,所有資源都花在這邊,反而沒有辦法關注其他可能是未來更重要的部分,這也是另一件危險的事。

「科技的發展與知識的累積之後,我們會開始明白,以前怕得要死的東西,在掌握一些關鍵的前提下,其實也可以安然面對...,在科技進步的同時,法令也應該要與時發展出對應的限制。」

「下一個階段,我期待十年後的台灣,可以走向更注重風險管理的角度。」

經歷積極關心的階段後,我們應該要更進化。什麼事情都有風險,但我們不該一昧擔心受怕,而是在保持冷靜吸收更多知識後,了解到真實的危險性再做決策。而的確飲食的影響細微又深遠,沒有人能說得斬釘截鐵,但掌握好大方向後,寬心生活也是很重要的。

「我跟民眾溝通時,我就會強調,什麼都可以吃,但什麼要少吃、有些可以多吃。...將專業知識轉化,與大眾溝通也比較容易。」



【讓我們成為新思想的刺激吧】

「台灣有很多零星的小溪流,我不知道你們的年紀小時候還有沒有看過那種小溪,裡面還有一些魚蝦...」

小溪流在都市之中成為了水溝,容納家家戶戶的民生污水。早期的營建規劃混亂,工業、農業、民生的水路混雜,現在的我們的確很難想像,如何與一條小溪共居。

「我覺得藝術跟哲學是連得上的,創作讓每個人看到之後有他自己的體會,有自己連結出的東西,刺激他自己的想法。我覺得我今天的腳色也是在刺激你們切入這個議題的觀點。」

W先生在最後算是替我們下了一個小結,我們問了許多並不是那麼容易消化的專業知識,但的確這些內容改變了我們以往對待這個議題的想法與態度。
在這個議題上,我們能做的也有限。我們無法成為實際阻斷污染的力量,也無法提出連專家都無法確認的資訊,但我們期許自己像W先生一樣,更深入地挖掘真實,並不畏懼傳遞自己相信的事物,以刺激出更多新思想為目標繼續創作。
The issue of farmland pollution in Taiwan has been happening for some time. In 1982, the government began an investigation, which was the starting point of the remediation process in various cities. This time we had an interview with Mr. W who worked in the environmental protection department for further information about the process of farmland remediation.
The interview had to remain anomynous since this topic was related to too many departments. Mr. W said he couldn't represent the whole department, but would try his best to answer our questions.



[ In between different needs, try to find a balance ]

Mr. W has been committed to the farmland remediation project for a period of time. From investigation, inspection, communication, management, to the restoration and follow-up management of soil, it takes a long time to remediate a piece of land, and there are many difficulties in each stage. The source of all these problems can be traced back to the chaos in land planning in the past. Agriculture, industry, and residential area were mixed, so that the needs of many people involved in the land conflicted, and it was impossible to find a balance. In such a complex and intertwined situation, it was difficult to source back and solve the problem.

'Some people wait before moving the equipments in and just say, "No, it is not a factory, just a warehouse." And before you notice, the factory is there. In fact, lots of land is used illegally in Taiwan.'

Heavy metal pollution needs to be examined by devices, which makes it impossible to catch the polluter on the spot. These pollutions may have occurred ten years ago or earlier, and the victims who failed to catch the perpetrators could only scold the government. In between the farmers, factories, and people, Mr. W and his coworkers are often the target of criticism. Even so, they are still working hard to meet the needs of all parties. In addition to the land remediation and compensation for farmers, it is also necessary to eliminate the source of the pollution.

'If the source of these pollutions is not blocked, then there is no point for the remediation. In another five years, the pollution will continue. Only if a polluter is caught, investigated and punished, other possible polluter will be more vigilant.'

'It is necessary to maintain investigation with certain strictness, even shouting to let everyone know.'



[ Strict boundary, dividing protection and sacrifice]

The causes of land pollution are complex. It is difficult for us to say confidently whether these heavy metals harmful to the human body, through what parts of plants, and how they enter the food chain.

'Sometimes I feel that the experts dare not say too many simplified conclusions, because it is possible that this conclusion may not apply to all instances. The conclusions are likely to be interpretated in wrong ways."

People get panic when there is no enough information to trust. In a situation where the impact of pollution is not well understood, strict control is the safest. But to be honest, Taiwan has a large area of ​​polluted land in recent years, but most of it is not cadmium pollution. What everyone does not know is that other heavy metal pollution actually caused a crisis not as big as cadmium. But even if you spend more time communicating, the public's perception cannot be changed easily.

The big label "Farmland Pollution" may guarantee some food safety, but it has caused farmers to lose most of their livelihoods.



[ From do-not-know to understand]

Now Taiwan is still going through the stage 'from do-not-know to understand'. People in the past did not know that there was pollution, and the first panic was actually a good stimulus that attracted the attention in the whole society. But in Mr. W's opinion, some more important issues will be ignored if all the attentions are on these less dangerous issues.

'After the development of science and technology, we will begin to understand that something we were afraid to death before is not that dangerous. At the same time the related regulation should be developed with the progress of the science and technology.'

'I expect that in ten years, Taiwan can move into the next stage where we manage things with a perspective of risk.'

After going through the stage of panicking, we should move forward. There are risks in everything, but what we should do is to learn more and make decisions after fully understanding the real dangers. It is true that the impact of food is unpredictable, no one can say without doubt. But with the general principles, we could still have our lives calmly.

'When I communicate with the public, I will emphasize that you can eat anything, but for some you can eat less and some can eat more.... It is easier to convert professional knowledge to something easy to understand when you communicate with the public.'



[ Let us be the catalyst for new ideas ]


'There are many small streams scattered in Taiwan. I don't know if you have seen those streams when you were young. There are some fish and shrimps inside...'

Small streams became water ditches in the city, accommodating the people's living sewage. The waterways forindustry, agriculture, and residence areas are mixed. Now it is really difficult for us to imagine how to live together with a stream.

'I think art and philosophy are connected. Creating allows everyone to connect their own experience, themselves, and new ideas. I think my role today is also stimulating you to have new aspects on this issue.'

In this interview, we learned professional knowledge that was not so easy to digest. But it was true that these information changed our thoughts and attitudes on this topic. For this issue, might not be able to actually stop pollution, nor can we provide information that even experts cannot confirm. But we hope that we can dig deeper into the truth, and are not afraid to convey what we believe to stimulate more new ideas, just like Mr. W.